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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 15, 2013 16:07:38 GMT -5
Just thought i would add a point the gun argument in America and how deluded and misconceived the people seem to be. So i was watching BBC World News with my father and they had this documentary on Adam Lanza and the school shooting, first we heard stories about what happened during the shooting as well as some background on Adam Lanza, then we went into the arguments for each side. The NRA was up first with ridiculous quotes such as 'the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun', which may have some truth to them but only if you system is so depleted that bad people can get the guns just as easily as those of a more sound state of mind. We then got an interview with a NRA spokesperson who said AR-15's are more for show then anything when in fact they are very deadly. We where then taken to a shooting range where a teacher was talking about why she decided to bring a gun into her classroom. She said 'I wish we could let our kids play outside most of the day (which i would interpret as recess and not in fact the whole day) but the fact is times have changed and i have no problem bringing guns to my classroom if it is going to protect kids', firstly all of a sudden it is to dangerous to allow kids to play outside when a large portion of the developed world can have there kids play outside freely without risk of being killed. So what makes America different? Is it because there are more psychopaths in U.S. then other countries? I doubt it and really the only reason i see to all this violence is because anyone and i mean ANYONE (showed in the documentary someone going and buying an ACR without a license or anything.) can practically waltz in, buy a gun and then use it to kill someone with. The only way i can see to solve this is by putting tighter restrictions on who can buy guns and perhaps even cutting down on the number of guns produced.
(There was a lot more things the NRA and other American citizens said in the documentary however i will not be putting all of them down)
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Post by piplup10036 on Mar 15, 2013 21:32:16 GMT -5
Gun control is not what is needed, BETTER background checks are needed.
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 15, 2013 21:54:12 GMT -5
Other countries function just fine with gun control AND superb background checks.
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Post by Snowfeather on Mar 16, 2013 16:48:42 GMT -5
Other countries aren't America and don't have the same past.Some countries have less people and less of a chance of murder.If your always known as a good country with almost no wars then of course your murder rates aren't higher then other places.
1.If you stop making guns then it's not impossible to still make them.People hundreds of years ago made them without much and we can now,Somebody with the skills could start the business all over again in a secure place it's still going to go on no matter what.
2.The teachers were trying to be prepared even if it's low there is still a chance it can happen again.I think she's going over the line a little bit but 26 people died that day in a shooting no one expected.Every school can just say "I'm bringing a gun to protect kids from another shooting" when someone asks.
3."And i mean ANYONE (showed in the documentary someone going and buying an ACR without a license or anything.) can practically waltz in, buy a gun and then use it to kill someone with"
Anyone can.But it doesn't mean they will.My family can go buy a gun but their first thought isn't "Well I going to kill someone with this" no.It's I'm going to protect someone.(It could or couldn't it's who's buying it and why) If you bought a gun and the worst thing happens someone entered your house and is pointing a gun at your parents head,brothers whichever one.You shoot them.What did you do? You SAVED someone.With a gun that's a reason they are not always bad you kept someone from dying and killed someone who kills for the wrong reason.Most people just want to protect someone
3.I agree with the better background check.If you can't pass it then you shouldn't have it and you did something to earn that title and would use it against someone.If you just want to protect someone then why shouldn't you be able to? you have a clear background and a family and most of the time your not using it to kill unless you NEED to.Better background checks do this not gun ban.
Not everyone wants be like Adam Lanza it was a really upsetting and that big of a shooting doesn't happen everyday.He's one of the bad ones but that doesn't mean everyone that wants a gun just wants to shoot people in the head.
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Post by Dawnsky on Mar 16, 2013 19:53:57 GMT -5
I kind of think the gun ban is a little extreme, but I agree that a little more control is needed. Perhaps something like very limited gun control and superb background checks would be best.
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 17, 2013 0:16:43 GMT -5
"Other countries aren't America and don't have the same past." Many countries have a more violent past compared to America and are doing just fine (England comes to mind as they have been plagued by wars for thousands of years) with gun control and background checks in place, even China has a lower intentional homicide rate despite a huge population (meaning 'Some countries have less people and less of a chance of murder.' is not a valid argument) 'If you stop making guns then it's not impossible to still make them.People hundreds of years ago made them without much and we can now,Somebody with the skills could start the business all over again in a secure place it's still going to go on no matter what.' Guns from hundreds of years ago where not very good and would often blow up in the persons face, besides that many of them where reserved only for the army. Besides that with tighter gun registries and background checks would make the business highly unprofitable, especially if you acquired the part illegally and had to pay a higher fee because of this. 'The teachers were trying to be prepared even if it's low there is still a chance it can happen again.I think she's going over the line a little bit but 26 people died that day in a shooting no one expected.Every school can just say "I'm bringing a gun to protect kids from another shooting" when someone asks.' Would not have problem if your gun laws was structured properly. Yes school shootings happen everywhere but there are plenty of risk involved with teachers having guns, wrongful shootings, enraging the school shooter and prompting them to be less merciful (being shot at would have that effect on me tbh) among other things. 'Anyone can.But it doesn't mean they will.My family can go buy a gun but their first thought isn't "Well I going to kill someone with this" no.It's I'm going to protect someone.(It could or couldn't it's who's buying it and why) If you bought a gun and the worst thing happens someone entered your house and is pointing a gun at your parents head,brothers whichever one.You shoot them.What did you do? You SAVED someone.' The way guns are selling in the U.S. you would think the scenario is commonplace. It is not. If others can manage without this why does the U.S. need it? It just causes more death and destruction because you are able to buy guns this easy (if they where not easy to buy many would be robbers would be put off of attempting something such as this, not only that but if you pull a gun on someone who has a gun on your friend or family member would that not just make them pull the trigger or duck and then shoot you? I see very little sense in this mostly because i see no need for such an association with guns) Big shootings do not happen everyday? Well with all the coverage on the news about recent gun violence (and massacres) it is hard not to think that these things are becoming common events. (Off the top of my mind in recent months, 1. Aurora theater shooting 2. Newtown school shooting 3. That ex-marine who kidnapped the kid 4. That ex-U.S. sniper who was shot and killed at a shooting range and a quick google search revealed many more school shootings (lets put this in context, firstly most of the worlds school shootings are recorded on a single wiki article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting (Might i add Canada's highest casualty total is 14 (happened in 1989) and then the U.S gets its own page which is at least twice as big as the page for the rest of the world...... This is from a country that does not even have the biggest population in the world, so why is there so many school shootings? (Canada's goes from 1902-2010 and there are only a handful of cases, as for the American page from 1900 until 2010 there are 50+ (most likely more then 100) cases of school shootings (and a handful before that dating back to the 1700's) only way you can rationalize so many cases is that America's gun laws are far from adequate and need to be attended to as soon as possible. (Btw to get to the American page just click on the link provided in the previous link under the title united states.)
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Greyflake
Newborn Kit
Personal messaging is boring, but making other people read it isn't you read your fee, 1 cookie.
Posts: 19
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Post by Greyflake on Mar 17, 2013 11:19:09 GMT -5
Though i don't know much about the USA, i know the gun ban is WAY to far. I think better checks of the sorts should be put in. We can't pit it all on america, look on the news everyday it's rather about a murder or riots, we don't put on blame to any other country on that. If people really want to pit it on america i think they'd better take it to account of to why children in OTHER places are being killed or other things to do with them before they go to get a gun ban on america or pit blames on them. Guns can be classed as a two sided weapon as in it could protect or not protect, but i find this lies. To me guns are murderous tools of destruction and i think we should only be permitted to use them if we are in grave danger. America is in the middle of a huge crisis, so isn't it fair as other states to HELP america? Im sure there are many people who would really try to help. I am for one would give my life to help other people, as for i find it unfair if other people suffer and no one will fully pay attention and help them. Thats my point of view anyway.
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 17, 2013 12:09:22 GMT -5
Though i don't know much about the USA, i know the gun ban is WAY to far. I think better checks of the sorts should be put in. We can't pit it all on america, look on the news everyday it's rather about a murder or riots, we don't put on blame to any other country on that. If people really want to pit it on america i think they'd better take it to account of to why children in OTHER places are being killed or other things to do with them before they go to get a gun ban on america or pit blames on them. Guns can be classed as a two sided weapon as in it could protect or not protect, but i find this lies. To me guns are murderous tools of destruction and i think we should only be permitted to use them if we are in grave danger. America is in the middle of a huge crisis, so isn't it fair as other states to HELP america? Im sure there are many people who would really try to help. I am for one would give my life to help other people, as for i find it unfair if other people suffer and no one will fully pay attention and help them. Thats my point of view anyway. It is not about placing the blame on America, this discussion is about gun violence and how in America it happens WAY to often. The question is should we put restrictions on guns or let people be able to get guns as easily as they do now and let the crimes continue.
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Post by Snowfeather on Mar 17, 2013 17:00:55 GMT -5
1.I'm not just talking about wars in the past I'm talking about everything that could even happen or had happened.What I mean by smaller places is that you wouldn't expect such a small country with a great past to have high murder rates.If they have a few million you wouldn't just expect the title to be on them.If They have a small population like Vatican or some other small country then the first thing you think isn't high murder rates.By the past I also mean presidents, attacks, bases, they have impact on the people to (I have A better point at the bottom of the post) 2.Yes they were bad but today we are MUCH better advanced and could make a gun without a huge factory, and some people run shops with handmade guns that are still good.What I'm saying is you can ever fully stop this.If you take away a right to get a gun for the good people then they need to find another way to get one.Which would be a black market.Besides if someone high ranking goes around picking up guns it would be a huge problem to take up what they already have.Just for a president to say "We need to put a gun ban out and take up all usage or ownage of guns" is a huge deal.You have to go around the ENTIRE US.(People don't need to buy guns if they already have them so if a gun ban comes along then of course there going to want people to give them up) Not to mention house to house, And who says you can get every single gun? Someone could have 5 and hidden them in the backyard or a friends house (that hasn't been checked) and gotten it later.The people will always find a way around this.Even more so hunter, They use a gun to bring down their kill (most of the time) Taking that away would mean less meat (you can't always trap a deer or animal) making the people even more upset.Somehow the people will always find a way to keep sometime they feel could be needed. 3.Just because there's laws doesn't mean everyone's just going to follow them.How did the teachers even get their jobs? They earned it and had a background check (and a somewhat tighter one to be around kids) The teachers might shoot away at fear of someone with the gun (Which most likely is the one trying to hurt the others unless someone else had a gun) But most of the time it's one person and if their shot then you just saved kids that would have been shot if you had not done that.A gun saved them when it could also hurt them but this time it did help them. 4.Because their not America.They aren't the same as America the people aren't the same the places aren't the same.It is a horrible tool of destruction it always will be but that "horrible tool" Doesn't always get used to kill someone good.Not everyone buying a gun just wants to shoot someone in the head whenever they want to,50% of all the US own guns but that doesn't mean everyone of them just want to kill someone with it without a reason or even half of them do.You can't take away everything that is known for a bad or even horrible side."Fire kills people, Do you want to outlaw matches? Fire brings warmth but in the wrong hands could burn someone to death,So it's bad why not outlaw it? many things could be used to kill someone but it doesn't mean it will.Guns were made for killing that's what their used for, BUT it could be good you could kill someone bad or you could kill someone good it depends on the PERSON. There's something first all (In my opinion) that I think drives america to think they need to own a gun and this throws the hate on America in as well. Terrorism. It's fear.Terrorism is the leading problem of the nation it has had so many attacks and so many attempts. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attackswww.infoplease.com/us/history/911-anniversary-civilian-changes.htmlThe twin towers newspaper.li/static/25c3e11c6b0842997fb9cbb48a5c762d.jpg farm4.static.flickr.com/3204/2681002462_920aecd805.jpgDeath toll:Over 3,000 World trade centerwww.history.com/images/media/slideshow/9-11-world-trade-center/ruins-of-world-trade-center.jpg2.bp.blogspot.com/-UApQG8Pb4m0/Tm2rKrEMbvI/AAAAAAAADDU/nNFMdCa7PwY/s1600/NYC+Photo+of+WTC+Destruction.jpgww3.hdnux.com/photos/10/42/25/2237806/11/628x471.jpgjama.jamanetwork.com/data/journals/jama/4847/m_jmn20083f1.jpegstatic4.businessinsider.com/image/4e6a686769bedd027a000057-900/a-man-coated-with-ash-and-debris-from-the-collapse-of-the-world-trade-center-south-tower-coughs-near-city-hall-in-lower-manhattan.jpg death toll:over 3,000 Bomb on Pan Am flighti.huffpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2372/slide_2372_30483_large.jpgwhywereason.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/1.jpgdeath toll:270 This scares Americans straight down to the heart that the atmosphere of fear is being used to make people want to buy guns.If you own a store and the one next to you gets robed you want a gun.why? Your scared.Your thinking that someone might come and try to rob you. It's all about fear,If your country is perfect no bad people and nothing bad going on you don't feel you need a gun,Why? Because there's nothing to fear.Now if your in one of the most terrorist attacked and high crime rated countries that's something to fear,It scares people and the people feel they want some kind of protection because they think if it happened then it might happen it them. Fearing and seeing of random acts of violence that kill groups of innocent people.I get this fear. I don’t want innocent people killed I don't want kids at schools being shot and their parents devastated,No one does even some of the people that own guns. We need to listen to WHY people own guns,Most of them would say to protect my family,These people are scared It's the fear. Terrorism scares people here to no end.Since the twin towers the people in New York Have been getting and owning more guns They know that terrorism doesn't always mean bombs,They know that there are people in New York that would kill.They stock up on guns because their scared this might happen to them. If I had a choice to own a gun I would Because I'm scared something bad might happen and there might come a time that I'm going to need it to defend someone or myself (And you not meet to many that will admit that but it's true) If you take away something that could prevent your death in a needed time your even more scared,you have even more fear.No one has the right to take away our right to bear arms
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 17, 2013 17:53:09 GMT -5
(I do not think i fully understand your first point, could you explain?)
For your second point i never said take all the guns away, remember if i had my way there would be a gun restriction law, superb background checks and a limit to how many guns someone can own. If they pass all the requirements i would see no problem with having a gun or two, however for those with 5+ guns you would have all of them taken away from you. (well in this case 3 will be taken away) In response to your blackmarket sub-point i would have to say that they would be around but irrelevant as guns would still be produced however at a declined rate (because of the limit and background checks), potential huge fines if caught with an illegally produced gun or unregistered and potential arrest. (Though i realize i did not explain my standing and what laws i would like passed. For next time atleast, your feedback on them would be appreciated)
For your third point about teachers the fact is many bad apples slip through the background checks (those who have inappropriate relations with students, abusive ones and many more seem to be abundant)
'Because their not America.They aren't the same as America the people aren't the same' Most people in the U.S. have descendants from these countries. Also your point about banning fire is irrelevant because it is necessary for survival, lets say you have no stove or any other means to cook food and fire is banned well you cannot survive on raw food for long (you are bound to catch a disease), how is having guns banned the same thing?
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Post by Snowfeather on Mar 17, 2013 18:41:52 GMT -5
I've edited my post and much more has been added to it (my true reason I think Americans own guns) I will continue this later for now I have to go
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 17, 2013 20:57:41 GMT -5
12 Years ago and all of those where part of the same plane jacking event, that does not sound very often.... (In fact the most recent attack i can think of is when that dude put a bomb in his pants and boarded a plan in 2009 or 2010. I do understand that many people buy guns because of this but personally i do not see the reason in it, some of these terrorists spend their whole lives training could a civillian do anything in such a situation? (On the extremely rare chance that it happens)
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Post by Snowfeather on Mar 18, 2013 19:09:50 GMT -5
(Forgot one thing,Not everyone can just duck It's not that easy.Say if your behind them or at a angle where they can see you them you might get them first.Bullets are pretty fast I don't think you would have time to duck and unless they were aiming for the head I don't think you can) By the first point I mean influences like presidents If they lead their people in to battle to often That could lead to cockiness,more hate from other countries like We've got enough of that I don't know how to full explain it but bush comes to mind a bit) Is that what you were taking about or the past thing? What I was thinking if there is a Law to get rid of some guns (like what you said a limit) What was the point of that? To stop crime and murder, but what about the guns you already have? You wouldn't be doing to much really,no one can shoot 3 guns at the same time and of course criminals aren't just going to go up to the law and hand everything that earns their name over.They have to realize they are hurting the people.If there is a law on guns then the law might decide to just take them all away.In their mind I'm thinking it might be something like "Well If we take away all the guns then that's going to stop crime" Taking away one or two won't really do anything, If you want to make an impact then you have to do more and they know that.A limit won't change much and it's not like bad guys are going to follow it.I think it should be something like. 1.No huge machine guns (I don't even understand how you need those) 2.Better background checks 3.You have to have a hunting license to keep a rifle in the house 4.For protection guns it should be something small like a pistol 5.No going around taking up guns (laws) 6.Maybe a limit (not to small like 1) I don't think it would be easy to track down a black market after all no one is supposed to know about them.And what can you do fine everyone there? If guns are banned then your probably fining people that just want to protect themselves in the first place (Do you mean I missed something or you want me to say something on the laws on your next post?) Another reason there needs to me better background checks,but some teachers to deserve to own a gun (if they have it for a good reason) (but they are still in America) (I don't mean banning fire it was an example of a saying that's why I put it in quotes) better ex- What I've read on some sites is people sayings things like "Cars kill people more then guns Car's run over people but they are easy ways of getting around So why not ban cars?" "Fire kills people, Do you want to outlaw matches? Fire brings warmth but in the wrong hands could burn someone to death,So it's bad why not outlaw it?" What I'm meaning is they overwhelm the bad side and don't think of the good side (I had a site of that saying but I don't have the link) HUGE events may not happen often but they could happen at anytime and people know that.It was a surprise then It would be a surprise now. The major one were included but there are smaller ones abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/02/white-house-bombing-at-u-s-embassy-in-turkey-a-terrorist-attacwww.slatt.org/slatt/terrorism_in_the_newsSometimes,If you know they are panning to put a bomb somewhere and you have info on it you could do something about it whether it's shoot them yourself or tell the police (on the rare chance)
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 18, 2013 20:42:30 GMT -5
1.No huge machine guns (I don't even understand how you need those) 2.Better background checks 3.You have to have a hunting license to keep a rifle in the house 4.For protection guns it should be something small like a pistol 5.No going around taking up guns (laws) 6.Maybe a limit (not to small like 1)
All these i can agree to (to some extent)
Also the difference with cars are that they are harder to obtain then in America, you need a license and then spend 24k + on a car. I do understand the point however.
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Post by WillowShade on Mar 18, 2013 23:03:52 GMT -5
1.No huge machine guns 2.Better background checks [agree] 3.You have to have a hunting license to keep a rifle in the house [ i have 1 so agree] 4.For protection guns it should be something small like a pistol [my choice would be 44 mag.] (agree) 5.No going around taking up guns (laws) [what?] 6.Maybe a limit (not to small like 1) [owning?]
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 19, 2013 7:27:54 GMT -5
I have a new topic suggestion which i am interested to hear your opinions on. Ok so the U.S.A has supported tons of dictators in the past, from dictators who violated civil rights during Argentina's 'dirty war' to dictators that did not really do all that bad but still nobody really liked (Egypt's past president Hozni Mubarak comes to mind and is featured on the list, he still was not a good guy but he is not on the scale of Fulgencio Batista who was overthrown by Fidel Castro's rebel army featuring Raul Castro and Che Guevara. (Che Guevara! ) tinfoilpalace.eamped.com/2011/01/29/dictators-supported-by-the-us/
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Post by WillowShade on Mar 19, 2013 8:24:22 GMT -5
I still wonder why the USA has supported dictators..
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Post by Mod Blackbolt on Mar 19, 2013 10:41:41 GMT -5
In a sense they still do support dictators, for example Fulgencio Batista was the dictator of Cuba. After he was overthrown and Fidel Castro took over the USA treated them as enemies.
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Post by Snowfeather on Mar 19, 2013 17:58:45 GMT -5
Willow:The law of gun ban and the gun limit (2 post back) I don't think I can say much on this for now (I don't really know to much on this topic) I might have to look it up or something but I don't think I'll be in this one
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Post by WillowShade on Mar 20, 2013 22:57:05 GMT -5
Ok and I hope we will still be able to keep guns...
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